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If Christ died on the cross for all of humanity

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Posted: #1101
Quantum_Leap,

Before I answer what you said in post #967, do know that I enjoy reading your write ups and pay attention to your sports picks, so don't let this topic cause strife between us. 

In your post #967 you said...
 "His body was hustled away before Passover (all person stay in their homes) and was gone the next day. His cohorts helped him. More than likely Roman guards were bribed (very common). Most likely he made the long journey back to India where he began his studies. It was a hoax. The tragic part is how many people believed in the hoax, and how many died believing in it, or killed others who didn't share their beliefs in Jesus. The religion was made after Jesus, not made by him."
Continued...
 
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Posted: #1102
Quantum_Leap

let me examine this one particular theory and see if it stands the test of scrutiny and logic by asking a few simple questions.

1.) If Jesus did not actually rise from the dead, why did the disciples go from frightened, timid followers of Jesus before his death, to bold evangelists willing to die preaching his resurrection if they just really made the whole thing up and he was still dead? Remember, before Jesus was crucified, the disciples were, for the most part, cowards. Peter denied even knowing Jesus 3 times before the crucifixion. What event changed them from cowards to courageous? Answer: They must have actually seen the risen Jesus.


 
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Posted: #1103
Quantum_Leap...continued

2.) Why were the disciples willing to be tortured and killed for a known lie?You don’t need a degree in human psychology to know that people do not die for a cause they know to be false. People do certainly die for false beliefs all the time, but they think they are dying for the truth. If the disciples faked the resurrection, they would know Christianity is a lie. History records they were tortured and killed for their faith, and not one of them said, under torture “okay, okay, we made the whole thing up”? Why is that? Answer: They must have actually seen the risen Jesus.

 
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Posted: #1104
Quantum_Leap...continued

3.) Why would they make up the resurrection story if Jesus turned out to be a fraud? Remember, Jesus told them he would rise after 3 days. If he was still dead on day four, that means he wasn’t who he claimed he was, he wasn’t the Messiah and certainly wasn’t God after all, so why would the disciples worship a dead guy who lied to them and was exposed as a fraud? Answer: They must have actually seen the risen Jesus.
 
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Posted: #1105
Quantum _Leap continued...

4.) What was their motive? Lies or deceptions are typically done for some selfish motive. Preaching the resurrection of Jesus would not bring them wealth, fame, status or popularity. It would only cause them to be hated, scorned, persecuted, excommunicated, imprisoned, exiled, beheaded, tortured and crucified, as history records, so again, what could possibly be their motive? Just to save face? That’s certainly not logical. No one is going to go through what the disciples went through just because they’re too embarrassed to say “I guess we were wrong”, so what was their motive? Answer: It was the TRUTH. They must have actually seen the risen Jesus.
 
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Posted: #1106
Quantum Leap continued...

5.) How do the disciples, 12 ordinary people pull off such a hoax?Remember, this “hoax” would trigger thousands of skeptics per day to convert to following their scam as well as redirect the entire world to even eventually change their calendars and establish their hoax character, Jesus as the best known religious figure in all of humanity. How could they pull something like this off without ever getting exposed, offering a death bed confession or even admitting it was a hoax under torture? Answer: It must not be a hoax. They must have actually seen the risen Jesus.
 
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Posted: #1107
Quantum Leap continued...

6.) Why would thousands of people immediately convert if Jesus didn’t actually rise from the dead? Think about it. History records that thousands upon thousands were instantly and immediately mass converting to be followers of Jesus, as many as 3000 in a day. It is recorded that after the crucifixion, Jesus appeared alive over a span of 40 days and to “500 brethren”. (Back then, only men were counted in crowd totals, so factoring in women and children, Jesus most likely appeared to safely 1500 to 2000 people over 40 days). If that many people saw Jesus alive, it would explain how so many were converting because even the most hardened skeptics would have crowds and crowds of former skeptics saying “yes, it’s true, we all have seen him too”, but if no one saw him alive and the crowds had only the words of the disciples to go by, why would thousands convert? Remember, the disciples were preaching to many who didn’t want to believe Jesus was the Messiah, so what words could they speak to hostile crowds to convince them Jesus really did rise from the dead? “Trust us”? That might convince some of the disciple’s closest friends, but not thousands upon thousands of skeptics. So why did thousands convert? Answer: Crowds must have actually seen the risen Jesus.
 
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Posted: #1108
Quantum _Leap continued...

7.) Why did the disciples make themselves look bad in the Gospels? Think about it, if you were going to make up a story, wouldn’t you present yourself in somewhat of a positive light? The disciples painted themselves as sniveling cowards lacking in faith. Why? Answer: They must have been telling the truth.
 
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Posted: #1109
Quantum Leap continued...

8.) How did Saul of Tarsus, the chief persecutor of Christians convert to become the Apostle Paul, the chief follower of Jesus if he didn’t really have an encounter with a risen Jesus? Logically, if Jesus didn’t really rise from the dead, Saul would just gloat in his victory, exposing Jesus as a fraud who couldn’t conquer death after all, so what event could have caused him to convert? Answer: He must have actually encountered the risen Jesus as recorded.
 
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Posted: #1110
Quantum Leap continued...

9.) How could the disciples even steal the body in the first place? The body was encased in a tomb with a 24 hour watch by Roman guards trained to kill. The punishment for breaking a Roman grave seal, or attempting to steal a body or overpowering a Roman soldier was death, so how did timid, cowardly disciples muster up the courage to try this? And as stated before, for what motive? That’s a big risk for absolutely no payoff. Some will say “maybe the guard was asleep”. First, dereliction of duty brought death to a Roman soldier, so I doubt they would “fall asleep” and secondly, the stone covering the tomb weighed 2 tons and was rolled into a stone groove which would have been flush against the stone opening of the grave. Think about how loud a 2 ton stone scraping against stone would be as several disciples tried to move it. I don’t think Rip Van Winkle could sleep through that, so, how could the disciples have stolen the body? Answer, they didn’t. Jesus actually rose from the dead.
 
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Posted: #1111
Quantum Leap continued...

    10.) JESUS' APPEARANCES CONFIRMED 
    Christ appeared alive on several occasions after the cataclysmic events of that first Easter . When studying an event in history, it is important to know whether enough people who were participants or eyewitnesses to the event were alive when the facts about the event were published. To know this is obviously helpful in ascertaining the accuracy of the published report. If the number of eyewitnesses is substantial, the event can he regarded as fairly well established. For instance, if we all witness a murder, and a later police report turns out to he a fabrication of lies, we as eyewitnesses can refute it.


OVER 500 WITNESSES 
Several very important factors arc often overlooked when considering Christ's post-resurrection appearances to individuals. The first is the large number of witnesses of Christ after that resurrection morning. One of the earliest records of Christ's appearing after the resurrection is by Paul. The apostle appealed to his audience's knowledge of the fact that Christ had been seen by more than 500 people at one time. Paul reminded them that the majority of those people were still alive and could be questioned. Dr. Edwin M. Yamauchi, associate professor of history at Miami University in Oxford, Ohio, emphasizes: "What gives a special authority to the list (of witnesses) as historical evidence is the reference to most of the five hundred brethren being still alive. St. Paul says in effect, 'If you do not believe me, you can ask them.' Such a statement in an admittedly genuine letter written within thirty years of the event is almost as strong evidence as one could hope to get for something that happened nearly two thousand years ago." Let's take the more than 500 witnesses who saw Jesus alive after His death and burial, and place them in a courtroom. Do you realize that if each of those 500 people were to testify for only six minutes, including cross-examination, you would have an amazing 50 hours of firsthand testimony? Add to this the testimony of many other eyewitnesses and you would well have the largest and most lopsided trial in history.


HOSTILE WITNESSES 
Another factor crucial to interpreting Christ's appearances is that He also appeared to those who were hostile or unconvinced.

Over and over again, I have read or heard people comment that Jesus was seen alive after His death and burial only by His friends and followers. Using that argument, they attempt to water down the overwhelming impact of the multiple eyewitness accounts. But that line of reasoning is so pathetic it hardly deserves comment. No author or informed individual would regard Saul of Tarsus as being a follower of Christ. The facts show the exact opposite. Saul despised Christ and persecuted Christ's followers. It was a life-shattering experience when Christ appeared to him. Although he was at the time not a disciple, he later became the apostle Paul, one of the greatest witnesses for the truth of the resurrection.

If the New Testament were a collection of secular writings, their authenticity would generally be regarded as beyond all doubt.


Manchester University

The argument that Christ's appearances were only to followers is an argument for the most part from silence, and arguments from silence can be dangerous. It is equally possible that all to whom Jesus appeared became followers. No one acquainted with the facts can accurately say that Jesus appeared to just "an insignificant few."

Christians believe that Jesus was bodily resurrected in time and space by the supernatural power of God. The difficulties of belief may be great, but the problems inherent in unbelief present even greater difficulties.

The theories advanced to explain the resurrection by "natural causes" are weak; they actually help to build confidence in the truth of the resurrection.

***I know of a lot more reasons then this, but I thought these ten were good enough (hopefully) for now.


 
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Posted: #1112

great stuff Matt

 
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Posted: #1113

Thoughts are often confused with reality. Those who cling to the bible, or Jesus, are not demonstrating true faith, for faith is the opposite of clinging, it is letting go.

How can you define reality using the past? You do this (we all do this) because it is convenient. The reality we have in front of us is full of the unknown.

We feel like we are all alone, helpless and fearful (just like the disciples), yet we have the feeling that our roots and our past is unfathomable.

It would be convenient to lock it all up within a book, within a belief system. The past is known (or at least we THINK we now the past).

You tell me about events pertaining to the witnessing of apparitions, of jesus' resurrection. All history is in flux, and the accounts of credulous individuals represent the hopes of millions who seek connection to the Source of being.

Jesus persists because his message was true: Money doesn't matter; you are all children of God (the original greek says "I am a son of God'); Turn the other cheek (resist with flexibility/strength); Love one another; I and the father are one (and so are you and you and you); and so on. These are the teachings which first appeared in northern India and gave rise to Buddism as well. His teachings persist because he confronted a pyramid society that suffocates by its own design.

It is not a resurrection, but a continuity in time. The slayer doesn't end a life when he slays; neither the slain nor the slayer should believe so" (Upanishads).

There were many challenges to jewish law and authority, and many messiahs. People felt pain and anguish, and they seek relief, a saviour. There are people who feel they can do a service to people by offering them hope, by offering them "salvation" by living and thinking a different way. that's what Jesus did.

My words are harsh to a believer. to a person of faith, they are a mere challenge perhaps. A believer clings to his bible and is full of fear he will even kill those who appear to be a threat to his beliefs.

Jesus' message is timeless.

The countless systems built up around Jesus are offering hope to those who desire to see it enclosed within a system of rituals, words, and recollections (history). It cannot be made so, and still remain authentic.

The fact or circumstance of Jesus coming back to life after supposedly bleeding to death are in this light completely irrelevant. There is no end. I can only try to explain away  the witnesses in the bible as make-believe, as much as the virgin birth, and these fabrications were meant to tie in to the Jewish bible, in order to bring a new consciousness to an inflexible and tired religion.

 
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Posted: #1114

There are many paradoxes in life, and the recording of history creates its own. It is complex to explain reality or spirituality with words. Words change. It is hard to reach common people. There is a theory that the bible must be meant for even the stupid (uneducated) to understand it. Therefore many of the stories are inconsistent, poorly explained, and in a vulgar venacular and mistranslated in countless instances.

Buddism tries to explain ways to enlightment (freedom) one number at a time (Yet the Buddha knows this is not REALLY the way, but it is a beginning). The Upanishads utilize fantastic beings and gods to reach the hordes who can be brought in by fantastic deities, who are not REALLY deities at all. The bible is not markedly different in this aspect.

It is not fair to ask any rational being to disprove the resurrection after the "fact." Christians do this continuously and habitually.

We will never know for certain if the resurrection happened. And that's ok. There is no comfy science to confirm it, but so what. Have your faith in it and see where it leads you. Just please do not convert the natives or kill them because they do not understand you. They are my bretheren.

 
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Posted: #1115
Regardless of everyones beliefs there is a lot of compelling words and beliefs in this thread. Personally, I am more on board with what Quantum and a few others have posted, but everyone is different.
 
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Posted: #1116
Quote Originally Posted by Quantum_Leap:

Thoughts are often confused with reality. Those who cling to the bible, or Jesus, are not demonstrating true faith, for faith is the opposite of clinging, it is letting go.

What does this even mean? As it is, I disagree completely.

 
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Posted: #1117
Quote Originally Posted by Quantum_Leap:

Jesus persists because his message was true: Money doesn't matter; you are all children of God (the original greek says "I am a son of God'); Turn the other cheek (resist with flexibility/strength); Love one another; I and the father are one (and so are you and you and you); and so on. These are the teachings which first appeared in northern India and gave rise to Buddism as well. His teachings persist because he confronted a pyramid society that suffocates by its own design.

Those in bold are not Jesus's teachings.

 
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Posted: #1118
Quote Originally Posted by Quantum_Leap:

My words are harsh to a believer. to a person of faith, they are a mere challenge perhaps. A believer clings to his bible and is full of fear he will even kill those who appear to be a threat to his beliefs.



A believer does not cling to the Bible. They Cling to the Word of God. The "Word of God" is the Christ. The only reason why people hold the Scriptures in such high regard is because all of it: from the law to the prophets, to the poems, parables, proverbs, songs, letters and news, all speak about Him. In fact, Jesus condemned the Pharisees' worship of the Scriptures, because they lost sight of what the Scriptures are referencing, and was absorbed with only the letters of the Law.

John 5:38-40 NKJV [Jesus speaking to scribes/pharisees/etc.]
38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
 
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Posted: #1119
Quote Originally Posted by Quantum_Leap:

The fact or circumstance of Jesus coming back to life after supposedly bleeding to death are in this light completely irrelevant. There is no end. I can only try to explain away  the witnesses in the bible as make-believe, as much as the virgin birth, and these fabrications were meant to tie in to the Jewish bible, in order to bring a new consciousness to an inflexible and tired religion.



The factual phenomena recorded in the Gospels were only recorded because of its relevance to the Prophets. For both the Law and the Prophets testify about the Christ, and it was the Christ who fulfilled them both.

Through the Law is knowledge of sin and 'ransom' (or sacrifice) -- the payment for sins. Through the Prophets is knowledge of inevitable damnation yet ever-present Salvation. The Christ is the actualization of the two. Outside of the Christ, there is no salvation, and, as the atheist rightly concludes, only the oblivion of death.
 
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Posted: #1120

This movie can help u on your journey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUaD0Qg1r1w&list=PL287F70C3F2C27B01&index=15&feature=plpp_video

 
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Posted: #1121
Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

great stuff Matt

Yeah!...I wholeheartedly agree...again thanx matt!!

 
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Posted: #1122
Quote Originally Posted by Quantum_Leap:

it, but so what. Have your faith in it and see where it leads you. Just please do not convert the natives or kill them because they do not understand you. They are my bretheren.

A devout Christian would never kill anyone, any Christian who does that is a hypocrite and will answer to the Lord.

So since we cannot convert you then there is no need for you to come to this thread anymore because you certainly are not going to convert us to atheism...bye...bye!

 

 
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Posted: #1123

When Jesus sent his disciples out to preach, he told them to leave towns that didn't welcome them. When the disciples wanted to punish a town that rejected Him, rather than accepting their offer, He rebuked them.

So you see, a devout Christian follows His master, he does not punish people who don't understand him, he just leaves that person or persons alone. 

 
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Posted: #1124

Correction: So you see, a devout Christian follows his Master,

 
 
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Posted: #1125
Quote Originally Posted by Godsplay:

This movie can help u on your journey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUaD0Qg1r1w&list=PL287F70C3F2C27B01&index=15&feature=plpp_video

 

Wow! I actually watched this and wish I hadn't. No offense, but that was terrible and that guy was WAY to annoying. I prefer a more realistic approach. Again, no offense.

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