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All Forums | General Discussion

If Christ died on the cross for all of humanity

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Rostos
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Posted: Oct. 24, 2011 - 7:48 PM ET #726

Yes, you are , you are appealing to a fallacy of equivoction.

By believing in God, you hve to admit a realm OUTSIDE the universe exists. Then once that is established, you cannot say the laws and physics of this universe apply to something outside it.

 

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Yes, you are , you are appealing to a fallacy of equivoction.

By believing in God, you hve to admit a realm OUTSIDE the universe exists. Then once that is established, you cannot say the laws and physics of this universe apply to something outside it.

 

 
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Posted: Oct. 24, 2011 - 8:23 PM ET #727

Agreed. But obviously neither of us can establish a realm outside this universe.
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Agreed. But obviously neither of us can establish a realm outside this universe.
 
Rostos
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Posted: Oct. 24, 2011 - 9:29 PM ET #728

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

Agreed. But obviously neither of us can establish a realm outside this universe.

I am not. I am merely saying, IN THIS universe, something cant come from nothing. Remember, in this universe.

Then you said if something cant come from nothing, where did God come from?

If God was in this physical universe and ONLY in this physical UNIVERSE, i would agree 100% with you, BUT if God is already established, then you cant apply that response of yours because as you stated, we dont know the laws and physics to something outside this universe......

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Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

Agreed. But obviously neither of us can establish a realm outside this universe.

I am not. I am merely saying, IN THIS universe, something cant come from nothing. Remember, in this universe.

Then you said if something cant come from nothing, where did God come from?

If God was in this physical universe and ONLY in this physical UNIVERSE, i would agree 100% with you, BUT if God is already established, then you cant apply that response of yours because as you stated, we dont know the laws and physics to something outside this universe......

 
SYSTEM
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Posted: Oct. 24, 2011 - 10:10 PM ET #729

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Oh , and so people dont give in the name of Jesus?


are you really this dense  so what if they give in the name of jesus! the point is you don't need to have jesus for people to give! people give regardless of a belief in jesus or not! I know that is hard for you understand or comprehend. 

please try to keep up...
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Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Oh , and so people dont give in the name of Jesus?


are you really this dense  so what if they give in the name of jesus! the point is you don't need to have jesus for people to give! people give regardless of a belief in jesus or not! I know that is hard for you understand or comprehend. 

please try to keep up...
 
Rostos
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Posted: Oct. 24, 2011 - 10:18 PM ET #730

Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


are you really this dense  so what if they give in the name of jesus! the point is you don't need to have jesus for people to give! people give regardless of a belief in jesus or not! I know that is hard for you understand or comprehend. 

please try to keep up...

Jesus PREACHES sharing......Based on that, i SHARE......I am not going to comment on others, i can only comment on myself.

On one hand, you are linking peoples bad actions to there religions, then when i apply good actions, it all of a sudden has nothing to do with religion.

Youa logic is one fo the most strangets i have ever come accross

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Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


are you really this dense  so what if they give in the name of jesus! the point is you don't need to have jesus for people to give! people give regardless of a belief in jesus or not! I know that is hard for you understand or comprehend. 

please try to keep up...

Jesus PREACHES sharing......Based on that, i SHARE......I am not going to comment on others, i can only comment on myself.

On one hand, you are linking peoples bad actions to there religions, then when i apply good actions, it all of a sudden has nothing to do with religion.

Youa logic is one fo the most strangets i have ever come accross

 
SYSTEM
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Posted: Oct. 24, 2011 - 10:58 PM ET #731

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Jesus PREACHES sharing......Based on that, i SHARE......I am not going to comment on others, i can only comment on myself.

On one hand, you are linking peoples bad actions to there religions, then when i apply good actions, it all of a sudden has nothing to do with religion.

Youa logic is one fo the most strangets i have ever come accross


Let me ask you two simple questions.

1. do you need religion to do good things?

2. do people do bad things in the name of religion? 

It's not really that strange if you open your mind for a second...
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Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Jesus PREACHES sharing......Based on that, i SHARE......I am not going to comment on others, i can only comment on myself.

On one hand, you are linking peoples bad actions to there religions, then when i apply good actions, it all of a sudden has nothing to do with religion.

Youa logic is one fo the most strangets i have ever come accross


Let me ask you two simple questions.

1. do you need religion to do good things?

2. do people do bad things in the name of religion? 

It's not really that strange if you open your mind for a second...
 
KittyKatz286
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Posted: Oct. 25, 2011 - 1:04 AM ET #732

Those questions don't really get us anywhere. I know you directed those at Rostos, but obviously no human can answer either of those in any other way than

1. no
2. yes

Rostos will equivocate those answers I'm sure, but it's indisputable fact that I have provided the only possible answer to each question.
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Those questions don't really get us anywhere. I know you directed those at Rostos, but obviously no human can answer either of those in any other way than

1. no
2. yes

Rostos will equivocate those answers I'm sure, but it's indisputable fact that I have provided the only possible answer to each question.
 
SirJohnDrake
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Posted: Oct. 25, 2011 - 1:13 AM ET #733

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:


 THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT ANYTHING IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNIVERSE HAS EVER DEFIED THE LAWS OF PHYSICS. So if your creator can do that, why hasn't he?

Jesus Christ our Lord Savior the only begotten Son of God has defied the laws of physics. He calmed a storm, here's a passage in the bible:

"Then Jesus got into the boat and started across the lake with His disciples. Suddenly, a fierce storm struck the lake, with waves breaking into the boat. But Jesus was sleeping. The disciples went and woke him up, shouting, "Lord, save us! We're going to drown!" Jesus responded, "Why are you afraid? You have so little faith! Then He got up and rebuked the wind and waves, and suddenly all was calm." The disciples were amazed. "Who is this man?" they asked. "Even the winds and waves obey Him!"---Matthew 8:23-27

In another passage Jesus walks on water:

"Jesus insisted that his disciples get back into the boat and cross to the other side of the lake, while He sent the people home. After sending them home, He went up into the hills by Himself to pray. Night fell while He was there alone. Meanwhile, the disciples were in trouble far away from land, for a strong wind had risen, and they were fighting heavy waves. About 3 o'clock in the morning Jesus came toward them, walking on the water, they were terrified. In their fear, they cried out, "Its's a ghost!". But Jesus spoke to them at once. "Don't be afraid," He said. "Take courage. I am here!" Then Peter called to him, "Lord, if it's really you, tell me to come to you, walking on the water." "Yes come," Jesus said. So Peter went over the side of the boat and walked on the water toward Jesus. But when he saw the strong wind and the waves, he was terrified and began to sink. "Save me, Lord!" he shouted. Jesus immediately reached out and grabbed him. "You have so little faith," Jesus said. "Why do you doubt me?" When they climbed back into the boat, the wind stopped. Then the disciples worshipped Him. "You really are the Son of God!" they exclaimed."---Matthew 14:22-33

So more evidence I'm giving you that God exist while you still haven't given any evidence that God doesn't exist.

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Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:


 THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT ANYTHING IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNIVERSE HAS EVER DEFIED THE LAWS OF PHYSICS. So if your creator can do that, why hasn't he?

Jesus Christ our Lord Savior the only begotten Son of God has defied the laws of physics. He calmed a storm, here's a passage in the bible:

"Then Jesus got into the boat and started across the lake with His disciples. Suddenly, a fierce storm struck the lake, with waves breaking into the boat. But Jesus was sleeping. The disciples went and woke him up, shouting, "Lord, save us! We're going to drown!" Jesus responded, "Why are you afraid? You have so little faith! Then He got up and rebuked the wind and waves, and suddenly all was calm." The disciples were amazed. "Who is this man?" they asked. "Even the winds and waves obey Him!"---Matthew 8:23-27

In another passage Jesus walks on water:

"Jesus insisted that his disciples get back into the boat and cross to the other side of the lake, while He sent the people home. After sending them home, He went up into the hills by Himself to pray. Night fell while He was there alone. Meanwhile, the disciples were in trouble far away from land, for a strong wind had risen, and they were fighting heavy waves. About 3 o'clock in the morning Jesus came toward them, walking on the water, they were terrified. In their fear, they cried out, "Its's a ghost!". But Jesus spoke to them at once. "Don't be afraid," He said. "Take courage. I am here!" Then Peter called to him, "Lord, if it's really you, tell me to come to you, walking on the water." "Yes come," Jesus said. So Peter went over the side of the boat and walked on the water toward Jesus. But when he saw the strong wind and the waves, he was terrified and began to sink. "Save me, Lord!" he shouted. Jesus immediately reached out and grabbed him. "You have so little faith," Jesus said. "Why do you doubt me?" When they climbed back into the boat, the wind stopped. Then the disciples worshipped Him. "You really are the Son of God!" they exclaimed."---Matthew 14:22-33

So more evidence I'm giving you that God exist while you still haven't given any evidence that God doesn't exist.

 
KittyKatz286
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Posted: Oct. 25, 2011 - 1:57 AM ET #734

You can't use the bible as evidence. Try again.
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You can't use the bible as evidence. Try again.
 
Rostos
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Posted: Oct. 25, 2011 - 2:42 AM ET #735

Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


Let me ask you two simple questions.

1. do you need religion to do good things?
 
read my answer below
2. do people do bad things in the name of religion? 
 
My religion says, thou shall commit murder. If i go and murder someone because God told me to is the same thing as me saying that God told me to bet the texas Rangers in the world series. Utter Nonsense. Complete BS. People do atrocities to fulfill there sinful desires. Then once commited they hide behind the banner of religion. I am not aware of any religion that tells you to kill other human beings, certainly not Christianity.
 
With atheism however, there are no objective morals. Stalin who was an atheist and also arguably the biggest mass murderer in history of humanity determined himself what is right and wrong. Remember, as your buddy KK said, morals are not OBJECTIVE, therefore each individual DETERMINES what is right and wrong. If you told Stalin that what he did was wrong is no different to me and you arguing wether Lebron James is a better basketballer than Kobe. It is really just one persons opinion against another. All what you can say to Stalin is, i think what you did is wrong, but it is no different to you saying chocolate is better than vanilla...No one is right, no one is wrong. So for you to say what Stalin did, murdering tens of millions of people is not wrong is just your opinion, it is not ABSOLUTELY WRONG....
 
But let me ask you, what is good and what is not? If God says that you shouldnt have sex before marriage, and you decide, well it is not causing any harm, well, to you it might be ok, but in Gods eyes its not.
 
So by God, you are NOT good, but by your own standards, you think you are a good person. So, under the atheistic definition, every person, including Stalin is a good person. even Bin laden, cause, good and bad is determined by each person.
 
There is no such thing as Absolute good and bad under atheism. It is no different to saying Chocolate is better than vanilla. Just one persons opinion against anothers.
 
if i go and rape a little child, you might say i am bad, i say i am good., no different to ones opinion against another. So , i am no better than you and vice verse even though i rape little girls and kill them after....
 
You see the problem the atheist has under there world view.
 
 

It's not really that strange if you open your mind for a second...
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Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


Let me ask you two simple questions.

1. do you need religion to do good things?
 
read my answer below
2. do people do bad things in the name of religion? 
 
My religion says, thou shall commit murder. If i go and murder someone because God told me to is the same thing as me saying that God told me to bet the texas Rangers in the world series. Utter Nonsense. Complete BS. People do atrocities to fulfill there sinful desires. Then once commited they hide behind the banner of religion. I am not aware of any religion that tells you to kill other human beings, certainly not Christianity.
 
With atheism however, there are no objective morals. Stalin who was an atheist and also arguably the biggest mass murderer in history of humanity determined himself what is right and wrong. Remember, as your buddy KK said, morals are not OBJECTIVE, therefore each individual DETERMINES what is right and wrong. If you told Stalin that what he did was wrong is no different to me and you arguing wether Lebron James is a better basketballer than Kobe. It is really just one persons opinion against another. All what you can say to Stalin is, i think what you did is wrong, but it is no different to you saying chocolate is better than vanilla...No one is right, no one is wrong. So for you to say what Stalin did, murdering tens of millions of people is not wrong is just your opinion, it is not ABSOLUTELY WRONG....
 
But let me ask you, what is good and what is not? If God says that you shouldnt have sex before marriage, and you decide, well it is not causing any harm, well, to you it might be ok, but in Gods eyes its not.
 
So by God, you are NOT good, but by your own standards, you think you are a good person. So, under the atheistic definition, every person, including Stalin is a good person. even Bin laden, cause, good and bad is determined by each person.
 
There is no such thing as Absolute good and bad under atheism. It is no different to saying Chocolate is better than vanilla. Just one persons opinion against anothers.
 
if i go and rape a little child, you might say i am bad, i say i am good., no different to ones opinion against another. So , i am no better than you and vice verse even though i rape little girls and kill them after....
 
You see the problem the atheist has under there world view.
 
 

It's not really that strange if you open your mind for a second...
 
KittyKatz286
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Posted: Oct. 25, 2011 - 11:12 AM ET #736

People do bad things in the name of religion. That is a FACT (ex: the crusades). Is it possible that was to fulfill some selfish sinful desires like you say? Of course. But they openly said it was in the name of religion.

As for your morals. Nothing is absolute. Period. EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE. EVERYTHING.
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People do bad things in the name of religion. That is a FACT (ex: the crusades). Is it possible that was to fulfill some selfish sinful desires like you say? Of course. But they openly said it was in the name of religion.

As for your morals. Nothing is absolute. Period. EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE. EVERYTHING.
 
Rostos
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Posted: Oct. 25, 2011 - 11:31 AM ET #737

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

People do bad things in the name of religion. That is a FACT (ex: the crusades). Is it possible that was to fulfill some selfish sinful desires like you say? Of course. But they openly said it was in the name of religion.

As for your morals. Nothing is absolute. Period. EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE. EVERYTHING.

Here you go with your fascination of equivocating.......

Tell me where Jesus tells us to kill?

Because some muslim extremists for some reason want revenge and blow up buildings, does that mean Christianity teaches to kill?

Ok, lets play your game with morals......

I rape and murder little girls.....I thorougly enjoy it as well....

I am neither good or bad, also i am neither right or wrong with my actions here...

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Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

People do bad things in the name of religion. That is a FACT (ex: the crusades). Is it possible that was to fulfill some selfish sinful desires like you say? Of course. But they openly said it was in the name of religion.

As for your morals. Nothing is absolute. Period. EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE. EVERYTHING.

Here you go with your fascination of equivocating.......

Tell me where Jesus tells us to kill?

Because some muslim extremists for some reason want revenge and blow up buildings, does that mean Christianity teaches to kill?

Ok, lets play your game with morals......

I rape and murder little girls.....I thorougly enjoy it as well....

I am neither good or bad, also i am neither right or wrong with my actions here...

 
KittyKatz286
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Posted: Oct. 25, 2011 - 2:17 PM ET #738

How are you not getting this?

If I say "I am killing you in the name of Jesus" and I kill you. I have killed in the name of religion. IT DOESN'T MEAN JESUS OR THE BIBLE SAID TO KILL. It just means I killed in the name of religion.

I won't respond to your rape issue because no rational human being can say anything is absolute. Even the laws of physics aren't absolute. They are relative to this universe. Nothing is absolute. You are incredibly stupid for failing to understand this. I didn't know it was possible to not understand this.
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How are you not getting this?

If I say "I am killing you in the name of Jesus" and I kill you. I have killed in the name of religion. IT DOESN'T MEAN JESUS OR THE BIBLE SAID TO KILL. It just means I killed in the name of religion.

I won't respond to your rape issue because no rational human being can say anything is absolute. Even the laws of physics aren't absolute. They are relative to this universe. Nothing is absolute. You are incredibly stupid for failing to understand this. I didn't know it was possible to not understand this.
 
SirJohnDrake
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Posted: Oct. 25, 2011 - 2:58 PM ET #739

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

You can't use the bible as evidence. Try again.

Who said so?...you? a biased non-believer...lol

Of course I can use evidence from the Holy Bible. It's an historical truthful document. The evidence is coming from one of Jesus disciples, in this case the disciple Matthew's Gospel, since Matthew was a follower of Jesus, he bears witness to all the deeds that Jesus did, like calming a storm and walking on water and numerous other deeds that only the Son of God could perform.

In the passage where Jesus walks on water, His disciples worshipped Him, "You really are the Son of God!" they exclaimed.

The Holy Bible gives us Christians all the evidence we need verifying the existence of God. The Christian faith is based on the Holy Bible and I truly believe the eye witness accounts of the disciple Matthew as truthful evidence.

Lastly there is no way you can refute this evidence...no way whatsoever!

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Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

You can't use the bible as evidence. Try again.

Who said so?...you? a biased non-believer...lol

Of course I can use evidence from the Holy Bible. It's an historical truthful document. The evidence is coming from one of Jesus disciples, in this case the disciple Matthew's Gospel, since Matthew was a follower of Jesus, he bears witness to all the deeds that Jesus did, like calming a storm and walking on water and numerous other deeds that only the Son of God could perform.

In the passage where Jesus walks on water, His disciples worshipped Him, "You really are the Son of God!" they exclaimed.

The Holy Bible gives us Christians all the evidence we need verifying the existence of God. The Christian faith is based on the Holy Bible and I truly believe the eye witness accounts of the disciple Matthew as truthful evidence.

Lastly there is no way you can refute this evidence...no way whatsoever!

 
RJSmith
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Posted: Oct. 25, 2011 - 3:06 PM ET #740

Jeffrick?

https://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/20506


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Jeffrick?

https://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/20506


 
Drizle
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Posted: Oct. 25, 2011 - 3:29 PM ET #741

Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

 
It is not what makes us think that but rather it is what makes us know that you will be cast into hell for your rejection of Jesus Christ as your Lord Savior.
 
Rostos and I aren't making up the punishment...go read the Holy Bible it tells you plain and clear what happens to people who reject Jesus Christ.
 
Read anyone of the Gospels in the New Testament. Start with the Gospel of Matthew.
 
God gives everyone freedom of choice. You can elect to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord Savior or reject Jesus Christ as your Lord Savior...the choice is yours as an individual to make!
 
All I can say to you is choose wisely!
 
Ok, I'll change my question and ask what makes you know this?  Because it says that in the bible?  So what of the other people on this planet who have different beliefs and follow different religions?  They are all automatically cast into hell?  Or do they go into what their version of heaven is?  

We obviously have different belief systems which is fine.  It makes for interesting debate.  Neither is right or wrong in my opinion because no one knows with absolute certainty because they are beliefs.  In my mind, I choose to believe that a higher power isn't narrow minded to deem one religion or belief set to any more correct than any other.  There are great aspects of the numerous religions out there and there are also ugly aspects of them.  I refuse to believe that if a higher power did create the whole universe (I have no idea how it all came about)  that is all powerful and all loving, that it would play favorites to people because they follow a certain religion belief.  
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Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

 
It is not what makes us think that but rather it is what makes us know that you will be cast into hell for your rejection of Jesus Christ as your Lord Savior.
 
Rostos and I aren't making up the punishment...go read the Holy Bible it tells you plain and clear what happens to people who reject Jesus Christ.
 
Read anyone of the Gospels in the New Testament. Start with the Gospel of Matthew.
 
God gives everyone freedom of choice. You can elect to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord Savior or reject Jesus Christ as your Lord Savior...the choice is yours as an individual to make!
 
All I can say to you is choose wisely!
 
Ok, I'll change my question and ask what makes you know this?  Because it says that in the bible?  So what of the other people on this planet who have different beliefs and follow different religions?  They are all automatically cast into hell?  Or do they go into what their version of heaven is?  

We obviously have different belief systems which is fine.  It makes for interesting debate.  Neither is right or wrong in my opinion because no one knows with absolute certainty because they are beliefs.  In my mind, I choose to believe that a higher power isn't narrow minded to deem one religion or belief set to any more correct than any other.  There are great aspects of the numerous religions out there and there are also ugly aspects of them.  I refuse to believe that if a higher power did create the whole universe (I have no idea how it all came about)  that is all powerful and all loving, that it would play favorites to people because they follow a certain religion belief.  
 
boberts427
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Posted: Oct. 25, 2011 - 3:38 PM ET #742

my encounter can not be used as scientific evidence, but I will never need anything more

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my encounter can not be used as scientific evidence, but I will never need anything more

 
SirJohnDrake
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Posted: Oct. 25, 2011 - 3:42 PM ET #743

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

People do bad things in the name of religion. That is a FACT (ex: the crusades). Is it possible that was to fulfill some selfish sinful desires like you say? Of course. But they openly said it was in the name of religion.

.

People also do bad things without any religious beliefs.

 So only when you read about bad things that tarnish the religion you believe it? Anything that is positive regarding the religion you reject it?..really sounds like a biased person.

First of all the teachings of the bible does not command anyone to do bad things, quite the contrary, it commands us to do morally right things. Anyone who uses religion to do their evil deeds are wrong....period! So you can't say the religion is at fault...now way at all!! The blame goes squarely on the individual or individuals doing the wrong.

Regarding the crusades, again let me state that the Holy Bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ does not preach violence. Men create violence on their own.

The Crusades were religiously sanctioned military campaigns called by the Pope with the main goal of restoring Christian control of the Holy Land. These Crusades occurred between 1095 and 1291.

Many historians felt the Crusades were not effective because, "those who survive, together with their children, are more and more embittered against the Christian faith.

Later,18 century enlightenment thinkers judged the Crusaders harshly. Likewise, some modern historians in the West expressed moral outrage. In the 1950s, Sir Steven Runciman wrote a resounding condemnation.

So the bottom line is that the Crusades were morally wrong...period!! And in no way should the Christian religion be tarnished for this wrong.

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Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

People do bad things in the name of religion. That is a FACT (ex: the crusades). Is it possible that was to fulfill some selfish sinful desires like you say? Of course. But they openly said it was in the name of religion.

.

People also do bad things without any religious beliefs.

 So only when you read about bad things that tarnish the religion you believe it? Anything that is positive regarding the religion you reject it?..really sounds like a biased person.

First of all the teachings of the bible does not command anyone to do bad things, quite the contrary, it commands us to do morally right things. Anyone who uses religion to do their evil deeds are wrong....period! So you can't say the religion is at fault...now way at all!! The blame goes squarely on the individual or individuals doing the wrong.

Regarding the crusades, again let me state that the Holy Bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ does not preach violence. Men create violence on their own.

The Crusades were religiously sanctioned military campaigns called by the Pope with the main goal of restoring Christian control of the Holy Land. These Crusades occurred between 1095 and 1291.

Many historians felt the Crusades were not effective because, "those who survive, together with their children, are more and more embittered against the Christian faith.

Later,18 century enlightenment thinkers judged the Crusaders harshly. Likewise, some modern historians in the West expressed moral outrage. In the 1950s, Sir Steven Runciman wrote a resounding condemnation.

So the bottom line is that the Crusades were morally wrong...period!! And in no way should the Christian religion be tarnished for this wrong.

 
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Posted: Oct. 25, 2011 - 3:55 PM ET #744

Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

Now tell me who would put their lives in danger if everything about Jesus Christ was just a lie? Not a single soul is the answer.


I disagree with you here about people not putting their lives in danger for beliefs.  Now this has nothing to do with Jesus but I want to illustrate a point.  If you remember back in 1993, there was that fringe group the Branch Davidians.   They believed David Koresh was some kind of prophet and didn't think he was a lie or misleading them.  And many of them died for it.

Again I'm not advocating these people or their fringe beliefs and not trying to equivocate them to Jesus in any way or the followers of Jesus.   Just wanted to illustrate the point that people will put themselves in danger for their beliefs because SJD said no one would.  Koresh was a fraud and liar and people still did it.    
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Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

Now tell me who would put their lives in danger if everything about Jesus Christ was just a lie? Not a single soul is the answer.


I disagree with you here about people not putting their lives in danger for beliefs.  Now this has nothing to do with Jesus but I want to illustrate a point.  If you remember back in 1993, there was that fringe group the Branch Davidians.   They believed David Koresh was some kind of prophet and didn't think he was a lie or misleading them.  And many of them died for it.

Again I'm not advocating these people or their fringe beliefs and not trying to equivocate them to Jesus in any way or the followers of Jesus.   Just wanted to illustrate the point that people will put themselves in danger for their beliefs because SJD said no one would.  Koresh was a fraud and liar and people still did it.    
 
KittyKatz286
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Posted: Oct. 25, 2011 - 3:56 PM ET #745

Because the bible isn't a factually proven book. You can't use non facts as evidence.
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Because the bible isn't a factually proven book. You can't use non facts as evidence.
 
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Posted: Oct. 25, 2011 - 4:00 PM ET #746

The crazy part is even after what was said and done to Jesus (By the priest we are trained to teach others/ also Jewish ppl who knew the Bible Prophecies).. There was one jewish person out of that group who tortured Jesus who said to Jesus that he believed him. Jesus stated back to him that you will truly die like everyone else but you will have a chance in paradise in forever living..

Im still learning my ways about Jesus.. ..i just think its crazy even after you get F*ck'D up for DAYS and Tortured.. ..that at the end of the night   HE still FORGAVE..

(Keep in mind boi;s i was born and raised Buddhist, and learning my ways with the Bible)

AND YES i do go out PARTY hard, Drink, Toke, Gamble..

Just fo.0d for though hahaha BOL ALL on your Bets! WIN WIN WIN!!!

Quote Originally Posted by Crashdavis565:


This is kind of my point. I am not much of a guy. I drink a little too much and gamble too much but as I was thinking about the dying on the cross thing it came to me that I would take one for the team too. I mean, do not get me wrong,  I really appreciate what he did and all but would not anyone do that?
We have kids go "over the hill" in war into a hail of bullets and take one for the team. The Japanese have kamikazes.  These people are sacrificing themselves for others. Jesus made a good call and all by dying on the cross to take care of all the sins of man but I think most people when faced with this decision would have done the same?
Not all that big of a deal?
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The crazy part is even after what was said and done to Jesus (By the priest we are trained to teach others/ also Jewish ppl who knew the Bible Prophecies).. There was one jewish person out of that group who tortured Jesus who said to Jesus that he believed him. Jesus stated back to him that you will truly die like everyone else but you will have a chance in paradise in forever living..

Im still learning my ways about Jesus.. ..i just think its crazy even after you get F*ck'D up for DAYS and Tortured.. ..that at the end of the night   HE still FORGAVE..

(Keep in mind boi;s i was born and raised Buddhist, and learning my ways with the Bible)

AND YES i do go out PARTY hard, Drink, Toke, Gamble..

Just fo.0d for though hahaha BOL ALL on your Bets! WIN WIN WIN!!!

Quote Originally Posted by Crashdavis565:


This is kind of my point. I am not much of a guy. I drink a little too much and gamble too much but as I was thinking about the dying on the cross thing it came to me that I would take one for the team too. I mean, do not get me wrong,  I really appreciate what he did and all but would not anyone do that?
We have kids go "over the hill" in war into a hail of bullets and take one for the team. The Japanese have kamikazes.  These people are sacrificing themselves for others. Jesus made a good call and all by dying on the cross to take care of all the sins of man but I think most people when faced with this decision would have done the same?
Not all that big of a deal?
 
SirJohnDrake
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Posted: Oct. 25, 2011 - 5:26 PM ET #747

Quote Originally Posted by Drizle:


I disagree with you here about people not putting their lives in danger for beliefs.  Now this has nothing to do with Jesus but I want to illustrate a point.  If you remember back in 1993, there was that fringe group the Branch Davidians.   They believed David Koresh was some kind of prophet and didn't think he was a lie or misleading them.  And many of them died for it.

Again I'm not advocating these people or their fringe beliefs and not trying to equivocate them to Jesus in any way or the followers of Jesus.   Just wanted to illustrate the point that people will put themselves in danger for their beliefs because SJD said no one would.  Koresh was a fraud and liar and people still did it.    

I wasn't talking about people putting their lives in danger for beliefs, I know people have done that before and yes I remember the branch davidians story.

I was just referring to the 12 Jesus disciples and that not one of His disciples would have put their lives in danger if everything about Jesus was a lie. His disciples were witnesses to all His miracles and His resurrection from the dead. They knew He was the Son of God because of what they witnessed.

They saw this first hand and not by someone telling them and then believing it and then putting their lives in danger for a belief. They put their lives in danger for what they knew was the truth and not a lie.

Those Koresh followers IMHO were fools, being mislead and lied to by a fanatic crackpot!! While Jesus disciples were not fools for putting their lives in danger, for they knew the truth as firsthand witnesses!

So no way would they go around and say their Master resurrected from the dead if it wasn't true, all the while risking their lives.

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Quote Originally Posted by Drizle:


I disagree with you here about people not putting their lives in danger for beliefs.  Now this has nothing to do with Jesus but I want to illustrate a point.  If you remember back in 1993, there was that fringe group the Branch Davidians.   They believed David Koresh was some kind of prophet and didn't think he was a lie or misleading them.  And many of them died for it.

Again I'm not advocating these people or their fringe beliefs and not trying to equivocate them to Jesus in any way or the followers of Jesus.   Just wanted to illustrate the point that people will put themselves in danger for their beliefs because SJD said no one would.  Koresh was a fraud and liar and people still did it.    

I wasn't talking about people putting their lives in danger for beliefs, I know people have done that before and yes I remember the branch davidians story.

I was just referring to the 12 Jesus disciples and that not one of His disciples would have put their lives in danger if everything about Jesus was a lie. His disciples were witnesses to all His miracles and His resurrection from the dead. They knew He was the Son of God because of what they witnessed.

They saw this first hand and not by someone telling them and then believing it and then putting their lives in danger for a belief. They put their lives in danger for what they knew was the truth and not a lie.

Those Koresh followers IMHO were fools, being mislead and lied to by a fanatic crackpot!! While Jesus disciples were not fools for putting their lives in danger, for they knew the truth as firsthand witnesses!

So no way would they go around and say their Master resurrected from the dead if it wasn't true, all the while risking their lives.

 
Drizle
Drizle
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Posted: Oct. 25, 2011 - 5:33 PM ET #748

Ok fair enough SJD.  I understand the point you are making.  
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Ok fair enough SJD.  I understand the point you are making.  
 
SYSTEM
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Posted: Oct. 25, 2011 - 5:35 PM ET #749

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:


I'm not just talking about your religion and just murder. I'm talking about religion makes people do irrational things, because of misinterpretations and belief in fantasy. Without it we would have less people doing irrational things based on religion. 

I am replying to the fact that religious people like to bring up... well, look at all the giving christians do for the less fortunate. Well, I say and most rational people say, that you don't need religion or to be christian to do those type of things. 

 

Again, I guess you missed this point before. It doesn't matter if Stalin was atheist or not. Atheism itself is not a principle, cause, philosophy, or belief system which people kill for. Being killed by an atheist is no more being killed in the name of atheism than being killed by a tall person is being killed in the name of tallness.

 

Again, morals are absolute and based on what works for that society. Just like in the old testament the people of those times thought rape, murder, and genocide was alright. So in your little scenario, according to the old testament and people of that time, raping little girls and killing them would be ok. For today, and our society, it would not be ok.

 

 

No I don't see any problem with an atheist world view...

So, let me answer those two questions for you.

1. do we need religion to do good things?  No

2. do people do bad things in the name of religion? Yes

We would be better off without it...



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Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:


I'm not just talking about your religion and just murder. I'm talking about religion makes people do irrational things, because of misinterpretations and belief in fantasy. Without it we would have less people doing irrational things based on religion. 

I am replying to the fact that religious people like to bring up... well, look at all the giving christians do for the less fortunate. Well, I say and most rational people say, that you don't need religion or to be christian to do those type of things. 

 

Again, I guess you missed this point before. It doesn't matter if Stalin was atheist or not. Atheism itself is not a principle, cause, philosophy, or belief system which people kill for. Being killed by an atheist is no more being killed in the name of atheism than being killed by a tall person is being killed in the name of tallness.

 

Again, morals are absolute and based on what works for that society. Just like in the old testament the people of those times thought rape, murder, and genocide was alright. So in your little scenario, according to the old testament and people of that time, raping little girls and killing them would be ok. For today, and our society, it would not be ok.

 

 

No I don't see any problem with an atheist world view...

So, let me answer those two questions for you.

1. do we need religion to do good things?  No

2. do people do bad things in the name of religion? Yes

We would be better off without it...



 
 
SirJohnDrake
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Posted: Oct. 25, 2011 - 6:35 PM ET #750

How do you determine when a book is factually proven KK?...again you're too funny. By your standards to your liking and approval?...lol

Even if I show you something that authenticates anything in the bible you're not going to believe it, you're the type that only going to believe something firsthand by seeing, smelling, touching, hearing etc...lol

So what's the use in giving you evidence?...lol

But beyond that, you haven't given one shred of evidence yourself that God doesn't exist? Because I repeat you are guilty of blind faith that God doesn't exist.

 

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How do you determine when a book is factually proven KK?...again you're too funny. By your standards to your liking and approval?...lol

Even if I show you something that authenticates anything in the bible you're not going to believe it, you're the type that only going to believe something firsthand by seeing, smelling, touching, hearing etc...lol

So what's the use in giving you evidence?...lol

But beyond that, you haven't given one shred of evidence yourself that God doesn't exist? Because I repeat you are guilty of blind faith that God doesn't exist.

 

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