The border invasion......who's coming in?

@Raiders22

 No it wasn't hard to get over the Berlin Wall,the reason people were still in East Germany was because there was 300 armed watch towers guards making sure they weren't climbing over the wall.That was the deterrent,not the wall itself.You say "But the wall would slow down the illegals so much that those types of drastic measures would not be needed.The wall itself would be enough of a deterrent".But the truth is the wall doesn't slow them down that much,like I said research videos of immigrants going over the wall in less then 2 minutes.And you'll see that 2 minute deterrent isn't going to stop someone who just walked 2,000 miles.The reason East Germany had all those armed guard houses was because they knew that's what they needed to stop people from going over the wall to the other side,not just the wall itself.

You ask "what do you do once you get to the top of the wall",you throw over the top of the wall the rest of the rope ladder that you brought,and then just climb down the ladder to the ground.Again the whole process takes under 2 minutes.But you are right,after walking for months nobody is gonna take the extra 2 minutes to get over the wall,they'll just turn around and walk 2,000 miles to go back home.You say "do you realize how long a process that is",ya in total roughly about 2 minutes.

"Why would I be ok with it if it doesn't help".Same reason I would be ok with someone buying me a new fence at home,even though the 1 I have is fine.Cause I'm not the one paying for it.Why would you be ok with us building the wall,if it doesn't help.Because we both know Mexico would of never paid for it,they've stated that time after time.

Then you say "You are correct that the idiotic republicans helped the democrats handcuff trump on this",well then I guess your beef is with the idiotic republican party.Blame them for why trumps wall was never built.And blame trump he's the one that ran on that specific issue,but never came through on it.

But what I did ask is,if trump is found guilty of some of the charges he is facing.Will you still be cheering about how great he is,and more importantly would you still vote for him?

What happens to trump "could happen to anyone" and actually has happened to other people.But that's only after those other people have tried to overturn our election results (the people sitting in jail for the Jan 6th fiasco).I don't hear you crying about those people sitting in jail.It's also happened to plenty of other people who have taken classified documents.Are you trying to say trump should be above our laws?trump didn't just "question" the election results,that's what the 60 something court cases were for,which he lost everyone of them.What he's facing charges for,was going beyond that and still trying to stay in power,when he knew that he had lost the election.You don't find that serious for someone to do,you are okay with a politician trying that to stay in power,no matter what REGIME they are from?(Regime,spoken like a true russian supporter).Do tell how you think they are sham trials,are they witch hunts.Cause if they are witch hunts,in their hunt for witch's,they sure are finding a lot of witch's that are pleading guilty.

You can take that chance,and millions and millions of others can too.But just like 2020,you are still gonna be short by millions and millions,remember he lost by 7 million the last time.You actually think he's gonna get more people to vote for him after they saw him attack our own country?

@Rush51

 Trump did not have a handle or control over the border, the difference as I stated was the economic environment was completely different. Trump had a marshmallow term for over 3 years of his reign of terror, all he needed to do was toss some insults out at 2AM, get McDonalds and head to the golf course. As to what he did day in and out I dont think he did much of anything outside kick some dust, insult some people and claim how great he was.

There is nothing wrong with the fact he had a cushy, easy. lazy tenure..he got lucky that is all and I cant blame him as the reason he had it easy was rates were on historic lows and that made life easy for corps for home buyers and the market LOVES low rates. All those things changed after Covid as we know the FED thinks that raising rates slows inflation, that is a farce but the impacts are quite different than Trump faced.

What hardship did Trump face that compares to what is current? If you blame Biden for Ukraine and Israel you are being obtuse, things happen in the world with or without the powerful USA president being DEM or GOP, it isnt like Ukraine decided that because Trump was in office that they werent going to spurn Russia and start this mess, they dont care if it is TV boy in office or Biden, their only goal has been to take US cash and that happens with both parties, Israel is similar they dont want our input or meddling, they dont care if we think the idea of starting a regional conflict is smart all they want is blind support and weapons with the cash they demand. We have zero influence in either situation...but hey it sounds good to blame Biden, that might get a few mindless voters to the polls so lets go with that.

Trump 24!!! Look what's against here :)   brainwashed speaking points from media and government!!! Wall the gatekeeper looking after the flock here!!! Pitiful how brainwashed!!!   TRUMP 24,   Brother KNOCK!    No one took my offer so we know everyone here deep inside knows Trump wins for a 3rd time :)  move to Canada the next communist country!!!

@knockonwood

 Will you censor this Wall?? The democratic way :)   Knock!

@thirdperson

Nonsense.  The numbers are what they are no matter how you spin it.  Who cares how 'illegals move up the economic ladder'? That is not the point.  Try to stay caught up in this conversation when you research your inaccurate facts. 

@knockonwood

 Genuinely curious as to why you believe Trump can win 2024.  NOT the easy "well just look around how much more the US and the World has gone to a pile of shit since 2019" argument.  Anyone that actually understands politics knew in 2020 that Biden was the stooge candidate that the DNC ran out because he polled more favorably than any other "puppet" they could've ran out versus the big bad Orange Man.  He was the easy / safe old man to appeal to the "never Trumpers" and "anti- mean tweets" crowd....People voted for Biden to spite Trump.  Similar to Killary & DNC underestimating Trump in 2016, Trump and company did the same in 2020.  

What has changed?  What has the GOP done to affect what happened in 2020 does not happen in 2024?  

Just as in 2020 those handful of swing States will make or break the winner in 2024.  What has happened in those districts to change the 2024 outcome?  

@kcblitzkrieg

 I'm for Trump, not government!!!  You vote for what you choose and almost all wrong what you said but America ranks #1 in propaganda but you trust media and government.....Trump has my beliefs and your media and government doesnt!!!  I'm not arguing, Trump will win but I listen to the American people!!! Look around who hates Trump, you want to be associated with that bunch???? I dont...You trust what your media and government tells you, I wasn't born yesterday....I vote Trump, you who you choose!!!  Trump has been right on everything and I have a minister!!!!  You're so washed by your media and government but I understand how, they repeat the same lies daily..... biggest threat to America, the white man...You belive that, your side Biden and al Sharpton preaches this every day!!! You trust what you choose and who are you voting for, I said.... have a good day, I see what you people believe...Knock!

I'm independent, I don't trust either side I've said a dozen times,   Knock!

Oh, take the created covid away and Trump could have done amazing things but since Biden the world has gone to shit, nothing to do with trump!!!   KNOCK!

The al Sharpton party, democrats!!!  Not me,   Knock!  For the haters 12-2 in nfl this week....16-6-1 on Sat hitting all big plays....9-0 in totals for the weekend, I trust my beliefs!!!   Think for yourself,   Knock!

@MrWhatsItToYa

  No it wasn't hard to get over the Berlin Wall,the reason people were still in East Germany was because there was 300 armed watch towers guards making sure they weren't climbing over the wall.That was the deterrent,not the wall itself.You say "But the wall would slow down the illegals so much that those types of drastic measures would not be needed.The wall itself would be enough of a deterrent".But the truth is the wall doesn't slow them down that much,like I said research videos of immigrants going over the wall in less then 2 minutes.And you'll see that 2 minute deterrent isn't going to stop someone who just walked 2,000 miles.The reason East Germany had all those armed guard houses was because they knew that's what they needed to stop people from going over the wall to the other side,not just the wall itself.

Correct.  The wall itself is the second deterrent they should face.  The first would be knowing they are not welcome and will be prosecuted and sent back. If those two do not slow them enough then you add the other deterrents.  

But it was harder than you seem to think.  You have to plan to get over any wall, even if you are young and in decent shape.  You also have to time it just right, etc.

The Berlin Wall started with just the barbed wire.  They later added the electric wire, etc.  Yes, they had to use enough deterrents, so they had the guards and guns and mines.

But they had the fortitude and they were doing just the opposite of what the USA needs to do.  You have to keep in mind that this was basically a prison to keep people IN, not OUT.  People were not trying to get into East Berlin; they were trying to escape a prison.  But if the 'need' to do something like that were to be used, of course it would work.  It cannot be argued that a wall slows the influx down -- that is common sense.  The issue is whether it slows it enough to not warrant the more 'extreme' measures that you are talking about.  An extremely well-guarded wall that has great anti-climbing measures in place absolutely slows them down.  I cannot argue with you about that, you are right that if people have the threat of being blown up or shot -- they will think twice about climbing a wall or even walking across.

This is the same with North Korea -- they do not want people leaving.  That is a different sort of policy.

In the 1980s I was 'illegally' in East Berlin 4 or 5 times and, obviously, got out every time.  But I never climbed the wall to do it.  So, there are other ways to do it even with a wall in place -- but it makes it harder and it is an extreme deterrent.  

You are correct that 90 miles is easier to guard than 1900 miles.  But at some point the key parts would only need to be guarded.  

@MrWhatsItToYa

But my point is that I do not think you have to be that extreme.  You can have the 'perception' that something would be done about it -- that obviously slowed them down.  You can enforce the policies in place -- that would work.  You can put sanctions on Mexico, etc. -- that would work because they would try to contain their border better, etc.  If you stop hiring them and giving them free stuff once they are here -- that helps.  You can even handle it like Ike did -- that works as well.  I think the other extreme measures would not then be necessary.

BUT the USA people have to want to stop it and be willing to have the fortitude to stick with it.  It just has not reached that point for a lot of them.  The issue is once it does it might be too late.

You can always look at the leading indicator for the USA and see what is ahead -- Western Europe.

It is always the same with any issue -- you first have to see it as a problem.  Not enough people do, yet.

My question to you is EXACTLY that:  do you think it is a problem?  If you do, what do you suggest if you refuse to acknowledge that a wall is a deterrent?

@knockonwood

 Oh my..... 

Since your use of the pronoun "you" is referring to "me" with regards to "media" and government" then you mention "your side" I take it you know absolutely nothing about me and you haven't spent enough time in this cesspool sub to address me regarding any of those three items mentioned.  

I will try this again because, like I initially stated to you upon my opening remarks, I am genuinely curious to my query.... 

I am trying to get an answer on the "why" and "how" Trump will win 2024.  I mention nothing of opinion in my previous post.  I am looking for actual reasoning and answers to why and how Trump can win 2024.  Yes, you "believe" in him and he will win.  That is mighty wishful thinking.  

Now if you don't mind, and please, anyone else is welcome to chime in here, what processes are now in place that will help Trump overcome what failed him in 2020 ??  

I've posed this question several times before in this sub forum and have yet to get any answers.  I thought maybe you could help with this, perhaps not.... hence, the "wishful thinking" is not a valid political strategy.  

@MrWhatsItToYa

 "Why would I be ok with it if it doesn't help".Same reason I would be ok with someone buying me a new fence at home,even though the 1 I have is fine.Cause I'm not the one paying for it.Why would you be ok with us building the wall,if it doesn't help.Because we both know Mexico would of never paid for it,they've stated that time after time.

My question is why is your fence working?  What is your fence doing?

So, why would a wall not work to a great extent?  Of course, it work.  Now they know you do not what them coming in illegally.  Especially if it is followed up by deportation, etc.  If people know they are truly not wanted -- they at least reconsider; but if you have a welcoming and open door, what are they supposed think?

Absolutely Mexico did not want to pay for it.  That is why when they were threatened to do it by proxy they slowed the caravans down -- that was my point in the previous post.

Money makes people rethink their position quite quickly.  But then the USA removed that threat, as 'tacit' as it may have been.

@MrWhatsItToYa

 Then you say "You are correct that the idiotic republicans helped the democrats handcuff trump on this",well then I guess your beef is with the idiotic republican party.Blame them for why trumps wall was never built.And blame trump he's the one that ran on that specific issue,but never came through on it.

Of course, at that time you can say that is absolutely true!

But now that 'excuse' cannot be used because the Republicans do not have the control.

So, now you guys on the Left will have to realize that there is a problem.

@MrWhatsItToYa

 I didn't ask you if you were a trump guy from the start,or after he was in office if you thought he was a good president.Nor did I ask if JFK had any faults.I also didn't ask what another billionaire (Chamath) thought about trump.I also never asked if history is replete with faulty leaders personal lives.I also didn't ask if trump was a good person,or if you thought he was a good president.

But what I did ask is,if trump is found guilty of some of the charges he is facing.Will you still be cheering about how great he is,and more importantly would you still vote for him?

It is called putting things in context and using 'comparison and contrast' to make a point.  

You cannot discuss something in politics in absolutes unless you have blinders on.  

The examples are used to make a valuable point.

I have NEVER said how great Trump is;  what I HAVE said is how great his policies were.

So, yes, I will always say that Trump's policies were great and what he did for the USA was great.

To say he is a faulty human and has other issues does NOT take away from the good he did.  That is why you use examples of other leaders that have done great things, although faulty humans.  Or show other people's attitudes that still respect what Trump did while in office while admitting they do NOT like Trump all.

So, I can admit he did a very good job even while not 'celebrating' his faults.  Even some on the Right will not do this, simply because they do not like Trump and he was not their guy; the Left will not admit this about anyone on the Right.  

You really thought you would get intelligent discussion with knockwood? Come on now KC, you have much more awareness than that. 

@DeezyAZ81

 I wasn't even looking for "intelligent" discussion, just thought someone so passionate about their favorite Presidential candidate's chances of winning the 2024 election might be able to shed some light, or at minimum a half assed opinion, on why they think that candidate can win in 2024.  I was mistaken, I am a "second chance" type of believer though so maybe he'll come back with some thoughts.... 

I find it interesting that so many die hard, fanboy Trumpers are now so confident he will win in 2024 when they swear all of the elections are rigged against him. They cannot admit he lost legitimately in 2020, but now think all of the fraudulent electoral problems are fixed with a Dem in office and more Dems leading governorships in some of the battleground states he lost in 2020. So elections are inherently rigged against Trump, he has less support among Independent voters compared to 2020 and he is supposed to now win in 2024???  Wishful thinking for Trumpers, I suppose because it really makes zero sense otherwise. 

Trump did not have a handle or control over the border ; Good grief, Wall... you can't continue to say this when the numbers back it up ! And  Forget your " economic environment " mishmash of an excuse.   You lefties just can't come to grips with a President Trump that put policies in place THAT WORKED.  

Trump had a marshmallow term for over 3 years of his reign of terror,..  well, Wall.. let's see. Trump eradicated ISIS , put tariffs on China, helped move the embassy in Israel to Jerusalem,  passes the 2017 Tax Cuts and Job Act,... and oh yeah, had to put up w 2 impeachments, AND a phony Russian Collusion hoax that was found to be nothing by Mueller  ( and boy, did he want to fry Trump !! ) 

so, what again about this " marshmallow term"  and getting " lucky" ????  What a joke of a comment . 

No. This was a man that got Shit done while in office... so, why are you lefties all up in arms about this ?!

 ; 

@Raiders22

 You say "You have to plan to get over any wall".Ya lets see how that planning would go "Throw rope ladder over wall,climb wall by going left hand and left foot climb up 1 rung of ladder,then go right hand and right foot up a rung on ladder.Repeat this until over the top of wall.Then go left foot and left hand (and here's the tricky part) DOWN 1 rung of ladder.Then right foot and right hand down 1 rung of ladder,until your feet touch the ground".I think in the time it takes to walk 2,000 miles they might be able to get the concept of climbing a ladder.

Then you say "Yes,they had to use enough deterrents,so they had the guards and guns and mines".So now you are admitting that just a wall wasn't good enough?

Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong,but if you are trying to climb a wall does it really matter if you are trying to get in somewhere,or get out of somewhere.The walls just the same.

Then you mention prison,don't they need armed guards in prisons to make sure people don't climb over their walls?I'm high right now so maybe I'm wrong.But it sure does sound like your agreeing with me in my post 92,about needing someone monitoring the wall for it to be successful in keeping people from going over it.But I'm pretty sure that you would never admit that,but hey maybe I'm wrong.

No the issue would be whether it slows it down enough to justify building a wall at all.

When you were in East Berlin 4 or 5 times and got out every time without climbing the wall.Did you not climb the wall because you thought you couldn't make it over,or was it because you feared getting shot while you were trying to climb over?Which deterrent were you worried about?

And no,at no point would only the key parts need to be guarded,they would all have to be guarded at all times for it to be effective.For your home to be safe,do you only have to lock certain doors at some points in time? 

Then you mention "if you stop hiring them" that would help stop them from having a reason to come over.I agree,but wasn't the guy who you are saying is the answer,wasn't he hiring illegals at his properties?

@MrWhatsItToYa

 Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong,but if you are trying to climb a wall does it really matter if you are trying to get in somewhere,or get out of somewhere.The walls just the same.

Yes, I think to an extent.  You will want to pick a more or less isolated, or less-guarded area.  You would want to pick and area that will get you to a town or support quickly once you get across, etc.